Go read the latest from Keith at Blog in My Own Eye. He writes about our obsession with getting it right in Christiandom. And condemning those who don't. He thinks weve got it all wrong and I think he's right. There's a lot of great quotes, but in hoping you go read it in it's entirety I'll give you this snippet:
The point, to me, is that a lot of our self-devised rules are pretty arbitrary. They serve to separate, not to unite. They do so by creating castes of "I'm better than you" folks who can live by those rules and look down on those who don't; who can preach them into hell for their infidelity. They create super-apostles versus lesser believers who can never feel confident of their faith. They foster an "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude that is totally inconsistent with the truth - that we are all wrong, and only Jesus is right.Jesus came and he overturned more than jsut tables, he flipped the entire way of viewing God and his rules. But we quietly go back after Jesus and place the tables - and our understanding of God - right side up again. We need our rules and regulations, we need to have laws to obey and to be able to identify others who are 'right' as well. But that wasn't Jesus. He assoiated with the wrong people and acted in the wrong ways. He ticked people off because he didn't fit within their notion of what it was to be Godly. he just wouldn't paly by the rules.You see, I'm not sure that Matthew 18 is entirely about the proper procedures for handling conflict between brothers.
I'm thinking it might also be good tongue-in-cheek advice for how not to impose your fifty-volume perfect-bound personal rule book encyclopedia on someone else: Just leave them alone. Let them struggle through their own challenges, not yours. Because if you love them, you can't possibly excommunicate them forever, based on your imperfect knowledge and your imperfect judgment.
C'mon. Can you really picture Jesus saying, "... treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector" without a hint of a smile playing at the side of His mouth? The One who came from heaven to redeem pagans and to call tax collectors to follow Him?
Are we too afraid to do the same?
I would definately agree that we are (or at least have been) way too caught up in being "white-washed tombs" instead of letting Jesus' and others' "love cover a multitude of sin".
December of last year I was slapped upside the head by the Holy Spirit (in love, I'm sure). I was getting the food ready for the Nashua Foster Care Christmas party I do every year. We held it in the banquet hall of a Catholic facility. And while I was there on Saturday morning, a buch of guys came wandering in to have a men's Bible discussion.
They asked me if I wanted to join them and since the turkeys in the oven didn't seem to be needing me, I joined them.
And do you know what I found out? There are other people, other than me, who actually love God and want to serve Him as best as they can. CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?!? I mean, sure they had some basics a bit messed up, but they genuinely were trying to do their best as far as they knew.
And after the Holy Spirit had finished slapping me upside the head that morning, I spake unto Him with reverance, "OW! Quit it! I got it, already!"
Seriously, that morning totally broke my pride regarding catholics, and every other religion out there. They may have some things a bit "off". But they are giving it their best shot.
Since that morning, I have been much more inclined to build relationships with folks of other denominations. I now look at them first as people who want to love and serve God, and second as people from whom I can learn a ton. It's a much more humble stance. But it's one that might bring them to the waters of baptism so they can love God, serve God, and have their sins forgiven too.
And that's the goal, isn't it?
(I am not sure I agree with Kieths take on Mat. 18, though. It seems to me that Jesus laid out some pretty specific steps to take if someone refused to repent of an obvious sin. There vertainly must be a way to fulfill the passage even to it's unfortunate end, and yet keep compassion, love, mercy, and grace in the forefront of the dealings with the brother or sister.
Just my thoughts...)
Jeff - I am completely with you here. I've had similar revelations about folks outside our tribe. I felt absolutely stupid, ignorant and arrogant afterwards.
I'm still not sure about what to do with the obvious doctrinal differences, particularly on baptism. It's such a fundamental part of our salvation experience and was clearly 'in the beginning' as well. Hard to see God saving someone without it. But I've come to two conclusions on this:
- I've had some pretty foundational things screwed up in the past too. I may have some wrong now, but not that I'm aware of (obviously). I can only rest on God's mercy on me in my ignorance. It is by grace we have been saved. So, if I can count on that grace in my errors, can sincere good-hearted yet un-baptized folk so the same regarding their ignorance of what baptism is all about? If not, then why not?
- This is the big one, it is not my role to determine who is or is not a Christian. I for too long used proper understanding of baptism as a measuring rod for salvation. As fundamental as it seems to be, that is not its role. The fact is that only God can know who are His. In my sinfulness, that bugs me a bit. I want to know, but for what good reason I don't know. The only reasons I can think of for knowing is then I can treat the saved and the unsaved accordingly. Why not just treat everyone as Jesus did?
It's a real hard thing to do, avoid judging others based on your standard and understanding. I want to be absolutely right and if I am, well, then anyone who thinks otherwise must be wrong. God help me.Doug,
Forgive the tersness with which I write this. I'm kinda in a hurry to get out the door. If I had half a brain and some patience I would wait until later, but no.
I know what you're talking about regarding the big "B" (baptism). I had been wondering if I had been teaching some wrong stuff myself.
I have had to wrestle through my emotions of "Why this person or that person saved since they love God more than me?"
In NH the brothers are teaching the book of Acts during mid-weeks. This last lesson answered a LOT of questions and put a LOT of doubts to rest regarding baptism, the Holy Spirit, Laying on of hand...etc...
The lesson was recorded and is now online, as is the outline.
Here is the link...
I think it will help the confusion you feel in the same way it helped me.
I have come to one conclusion: If it is a salvation issue, I can't ignore it.
Some of the other stuff, I may be a little more accepting of. But salvation is nothing to trifle with.
Mmm, interesting post there.
I've got to say, I'm not totally hot on his take on Matt 18 - I posted on that myself a while back:
http://unveiledface.blogspot.com/2006/01/more-on-matthew-1815-20.html
It certainly seems anything but tongue-in-cheek to me!
Jeff & Mick - I can't speak for Kieth, but I didn't take it that he was saying that was all Jesus meant, but that he was perhaps being a little funny. I can see that, seeing how Jesus was having pagans and tax collectors over for dinner. So, if someone's really bad, refusing to repent even when confronted by you, you and friends and then the church, hey, have them over for dinner!
As far as wrestling with baptism, I guess I was a little vague. Although I did go through a time of wondering if I had this on straight, I'm not there now. I am confident that it is necessary and required, for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
When thinking about whether someone who thinks differently about baptism is saved or not, what I realized is that it's not my problem. I am not charged with deciding if someone is saved or not. I should teach what I know the scriptures to say, including the truth of the saving power of baptism, but if they refuse to believe it, it's not my job do make any proclamations at all about their salvation. God has said, in fact, we should not attempt to separate the weeds from the wheat:
'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
Matthew 13:24-30 My point is, at one point I had some things at least as serious if not more than baptism wrong and who knows what I've got wrong now. If I expect that God would have had mercy on me then, why wouldn't he perhaps have mercy on one who has those things right and baptism wrong? I know what he has said we need to do to be forgiven and certainly wouldn't knowingly take that chance, but who knows what God will do in such circumstances? I certainly don't know and can't know for certain and shouldn't pretend that I do.
Doug,
I certainly see the point - but I get wary of the "Jesus wouldn't play by the rules" line. The issue was always that Jesus *IS* the rule - the law came through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ - so we have received grace upon grace. Jesus never went against the grain without reason - the reasons already existed in Scripture. That's why I posted what I did about Matt 18 - it has great eschatological significance.
Regarding baptism - I totally agree with you. It is very popular to have a certain model (e.g. the "Who is my Brother" thing) whereby the central ring is those "properly" baptized, and then you move out from there. Surely the central ring concerns faith in Christ? Baptism is one important issue - Christ is THE important issue.
I was at a meeting of a number of churches recently, in part discussing the unity document. Amazing how everyone talked about baptism as THE test of who was right/wrong... I probed the same issue you mention - i.e. haven't each of us taught some bogus things over the years? Somehow God has grace on us baptizers but not on any Evangelicals who truly love Jesus Christ????
I have obviously had the same thoughts, myself.
Is Jesus willing to forgive un-baptized followers?
Is it ok to call someone my brother simply because he loves God?
Is it wrong to let the issue of baptism come between me and someone who probably loves God more than I do?
But I always come back to the same thing:
I have never heard anyone explain the concept of "accepting Jesus into your heart" without having to either take scripture out of context, or twist it so badly it is forced to say something it does not.
Whereas:
The scriptures that teach baptism are so unbelievably clear they cannot be brushed aside.
Act 2:38
1 Peter 3:21
Rom. 6:4
Col. 2:9-12
Etc...
I know you said you don't do that Doug. And that you are solid on it, now. I guess I'm just trying to express a frustration I feel.
I really do not treat those who love God, but have not been baptized, any differently than I do those who have been baptized. Though I used to look down on them, I do so no longer.
But I know in my heart that there is a wall between us. A wall that separates us. A wall that keeps me from being able, in good conscience, to call him my brother.
So the question remains, "How might I treat them the way Jesus would?"
I think I figured at least part of it out. We always said "share your faith, share your faith" and you'll be fruitful".
Last night I taught a class to the brothers entitled "Into All The Wolrd". I worked on it for a month. Then two days ago I scrapped the whole lesson and started over. Why, because there was nothing about "loving people" in it. (yeah...I know...I had my brian turned on but my heart turned off.)But I had a thought about Jesus that blew my mind.
I re-did the lesson and talked about loving people without any expectations. Giving to them, meeting their needs, crying with them...etc, just because they are people. That is (hopefully) the heart that I am going to take with me throughout the day. No matter if a guy tells me he is a Christian or not, I am simply gonna love him.
That ought to make Jesus proud, no?
You know what's weird? When I log in to my blog and edit that comment of mine above, my end [blockquote] tag is after the scripture reference, but when it gets published it's not. Odd. But I digress.
Mick - I'm not suggesting that Jesus wouldn't play by the rules, just that I have no business telling the rule maker that he has to follow his rules or how to do so. I believe that he will, but I also believe that I don't fully understand the implications of his rules, if that makes sense. In other words, what I think he will do in the context of following the rules may be different than what he actually does. Didn't he constantly surprise the Pharisees by following the rules in unexpected ways?
Jeff - Bingo.
I think all the wrestling is because we're taught in culture both worldy and in church that we are better than other people because... The people living on the top of the hill think their better than the ones in the valley. The one in the city think their better than the ones in the country. The ones in New York think their better than the ones in Chicago and of course vis versa and on and on in everything. The point is we were taught in the ICOC that we were better than everyone else because we had the right doctrine. We'll what about those with the same? We'll we have, (used to), discipling relationships. Well what about those who have similar relationships? We share our faith? They say they do too? We do it more. Whatever, it goes on and on and we sought ways to show we were different that we were better than the rest. We even sought a name out and called ourselves disciples to show we were different. We were the only ones set apart. We said differently but we really didn't mean it. And guess what, after doctrine (and following it), and there is a lot in church culture apart from doctrine, it really really doesn't matter.
beg, you make some good points about the old mindset.
Though it is difficult, shaking that mindset is first priority if we are going to love people as Jesus did. Great point.
(Ya' kinda lost me on that last sentence, though. Do you mean that doctrine doesn't matter, or that church culture doesn't matter? Or did I miss the point totally?)
I tried to say that doctrine and following the doctrine, (life), is important and the differences we try to highlight are not. When one gets into the I do this more or better game you always loose. There will always be someone out there who does it more and better and is bigger faster and smarter.
Gotcha. Thanks.
I don't know why I missed that. You were simply talking about being prideful. And I know all about that!
;-)
Mostly my beef is with people who "use" Matthew 18 the right way for the wrong reason(s) ... like bawling people out who don't agree with them on things that scripture doesn't bother with.
Even on an issue as fundamental (dare I use the word?) as baptism is to me, I feel constrained to remain open and avoid displaying an "Oh, I'm right and you're wrong about that" attitude, which doesn't persuade anyone.
Which is why I recommend presenting that particular sacrament as The Gift of Baptism rather than the command.
Why would anyone turn down a wonderful gift from God?