Perean Ministry

Wow, somebody took off the kid gloves and came here to fight. Some strong, but very serious words. With the Luke 17:30-37 scripture, to my understanding, it is concerning the destruction of Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem happened around 70AD, and that was also the time when the apostolic age and the gifts of the Spirit started to wain. The epistles were starting to be considered Holy scripture, and the foundational work of the church was solidifying. Jesus also uses this kind of language in other Gospels too. In Mark 13 there is a parrallel. Notice Mark 13:14. It talks about the fulfillment of a Daniel scripture prophesying the distruction of the temple. But in Mark 13:30, "Assuedly, I say to you, this generation will be no means pass away till all these things take place." So paralleling, look at Luke 17:25 as it reads, "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation." So when you put Luke 17:30, "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed." Which is the Cross and Resurection. So this is all to my understanding. I know that pre-millinialist pervert these scriptures and subject them to today's situation. But I believe that they are in error.

I appreciate your convictions here my brother. I am grateful and honored to know you.

Paul,

Not to get totally OT from Doug's post, but what evidence do we have that the gifts of the Spirit waned after 70 AD? I've heard that all my life (c of C), but am not sure what the source of that information is.

Jema,
I can appreciate you asking that. There is a matter of evidence, but more so, a matter of biblical clarity. Let us start with 1 Corinthians 12-14. 1 Corinthians 12 discusses these gifts, and puts them in their proper perspective. Paul (through the Spirit) reveals that different people will have different gifts, just the same as different people will have different roles in the church. But, even though we are all different, we are still part of the one body. In Chapter 13, he is showing the Corinthians a "more excellent way." He notes that if we can speak in tongues (languages), but don't have love, then it's useless. If we have prophecy, and have all knowledge, but not love, then we are nothing. Then he says that if we give everything we have to the poor, but don't have love, then it profits us nothing. Then he starts listing the famous list of Love descriptions. But let's look at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says (NKJV) "Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away." So this says that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge won't last forever. We know that from this scripture, there will be a time that they won't be. Look at verse 9, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part." Let's stop and look at that. The translated for part, is the word "EK MEROUS" which means "in part; partial; incomplete; a portion of the whole." What does it mean that the gifts are 'incomplete?' Well, to answer that we must look at verse 10. "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." The word perfect is an interesting one here. Right away we would think perfection? How are we supposed to reach perfection. In fact, due to the misunderstanding of what is meant here, this has been indoctrinated meaning heaven/resurrection. Well, that's not accurate. The word perfect here according to VINE'S Expository Dictionary means, "signifies having reached its end, finished, complete…of things complete." According to THAYER, Greek-English Lexicon it is defined as, "brought to an end, finished, wanting nothing necessary to completeness…of full age, mature." So, what Paul is doing here, is contrasting the incomplete gifts, to the completion of love. Love makes us complete. Now, let's look at verse 11. "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things." So, a person could say "what is he talking about children for?" Well, he is making a point. It ties directly to the previous scripture. The gifts will cease because they are incompleteness, but when love comes it will stay. When I was a child I acted like one (gifts), but when I became a man (love, completeness) I stopped acting like a child. NOW, let's look at verse 12. "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." Verse 13, "And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." Paul is conveying the contrast of an immature church, and a mature church. The immature church needs the gifts, and the mature church HAS loved. The miraculous gifts were as sign from God, confirming the truthfulness of the apostolic authority through their preaching and epistles. Look at Mark 16:17-20, and Hebrews 2:3-4. For a further consideration, read Ephesians 4:7-15 for a parallel. Let's look at some scripture concerning the purpose of the miraculous gifts. Mark 2:8-11 says, "But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His Spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, "Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven you.' Or to say, 'Arise, take up your bed and walk'? BUT that you may know that the Son of God has power on earth to forgive sins" –He said to the paralytic, "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house." Jesus was confirming who He was by performing miracles. Now Acts 2:22, "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves know" Again, God is using miracles to prove that Christ was from Him. This actually is pretty standard procedure when it comes to revelation of God to man. Just ask Pharaoh. He probably wished he had never met Moses. For more scriptures about the purpose of Miraculous Gifts, read Mark 1:32-38, Matthew 11:20-24, John 9:1-12, John 10:31-32, John 11:14ff., John 20:30-31, Mark 16:15-20, Hebrews 2:3-4, and 2 Corinthians 12:12. One must also look at how one would receive the Miraculous Gifts. Look at Acts 14:1-3, 8:18; 19:6. The MG's were giving by the laying on of the Apostles hands. No one in the bible prayed for the MG's. No one asked for them (except Simon the Sorcerer, and even he had to wait till Peter and John showed up. Philip the evangelist couldn't do it.) The gifts were just that, a gift. It was something that was given. Since the gifts could only be given from the laying on of the Apostles hands, and there aren't any Apostles today, then who would there be to give these gifts. Moreover, we don't need them. Mark 16:20 says that they are to confirm the word. Well, the fact that we have a bible in our hands is proof enough that we don't have the gifts.

Well, we could then go into 1 Corinthians 14. This is direction on how to use the gifts. The Corinthians were abusing their power, and Paul needed to straighten them out. In all the modern day displays of the Gifts, I have encountered none that follow the direction in this chapter. This chapter gives specific direction (Paul doesn't say speaking in other languages is bad, just not so hot as prophesying.) And modern day healings are proving to be debunked (meaning televangelists type healing, not having a whole church pray for someone and they get better kind of deal.) But we have the complete word, why would we need more to it, unless you believe in what the Mormons believe, or the Jehovah's Witnesses (fine people, all of them, just biblically not sound). And if you have ever been to a charismatic service, the ecstatic utterances are nothing like the only example given in Acts 2 or follow the direction given in 1 Corinthians 14:27-28. I haven't seen anyone raise someone from the dead, so where are the Apostles to give these gifts. Asking the Spirit to give you gifts is equivalent to praying Jesus into your heart for salvation. Erroneous!

I hope I have answered the challenge to explain my comment about the gifts waning. I hope so. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments about what I just wrote.

It certainly wasn't a challenge, but you answered my question thoroughly. I have heard plenty of times that the gifts of the Spirit were for the Apostles only and those whom then directly imparted these gifts to only, but was never really given actual Scripture. It just seems strange to me that Paul would spend so much time explaining them, how to use them, how not to use them, how not to abuse them, for us to not have them today. I realize his letters have near-far relevance, but there is just so much instruction regarding these gifts -- far more than many other topics he covers.

Should have been . . . those to whom they directly these gifts only.

Aargh! Can't type, going to bed!!! Doug, thanks for letting me hijack your thread for a little bit.

What you say Jema is true. Please keep in mind that these spiritual gifts were a testimony to the inspired Apostolic epistles, plus all the prophesy going on in these fellowship that were given these gift. Paul was doing what he does with each epistle, address the churches problems/flaws/sins and so forth. There is also a great deal of direction on eating fresh meat that was just sacrificed to idols. Some converts thought it was sin, others, stronger in their faith just ate. This is reiterated in Romans. Really, the three chapters in 1 Corinthians is the biggest block concerning the gifts. But there is more. Again I would like to remind you that the perpose of the Miraculas Gifts, was to edify and comfirm the message brought by the Apostles. Since we have a bible today, and the miracles have been recorded, there is no long any need for us to practice these gifts. I believe it was essential for Paul to go into detail, because they were abusing there gifts, and hence, not using them for God's purpose. To confirm the message.

I would like to share with you why I believe the gifts were waning around the time of the destruction of the Temple.

It is historically accurate that the Temple was destroyed by the Roman army in 70AD. But let's look at some scripture.

Read Matthew 24:14-15, and notice the reference to the Daniel 9:27. In the Matthew context, the reference being made her is that Jesus is trying to prepare this brother for some seriously heavy stuff. Look Matt. 24:1-2. This puts the whole chapter in perspective. He is prophesying about the destruction of the temple, and raps it up vs. 14-15.

Now, we have to look at the Daniel scripture. Read it, Daniel 9:24-27. These prophesy is about the end of Judaism as a function Doctrine. Vs. 24 says that the time to wrap things up is coming. Seventy weeks are determined (this is a symbolic time line and I don't have the chart with me. But look at the passing of time during this whole passage. Look in vs. 25 (NKJV) "Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem, Until Messiah the Prince…" Then it goes into some more time stuff, which I assure you is technically correct (based on some assumptions of course ;-) which are base on an educated biblical scholar.) That time barrier from the Jerusalem's reconstruction (see Ezra, and Nehemiah) to the Messiah Prince (Jesus) was about 500 years. That is no unknown fact. So, we are getting a prophetic insight to that whole time. Look at vs. 26, "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined." See, it's talking about Jesus. "Being cut off but not for Himself." It says that he will "destroy the city and the sanctuary." Then in vs. 27, "Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering." Bring the end to sacrifice and offering is destroying the Mosaic and Levitical law. Okay, we get the hint of what is being talked about, and why Jesus used it as an example. But, look at Daniel 9:24. Look where it says "To seal up vision and prophesy…" That's important, and leading in the direction of why I think the gifts were waning during the time of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now, the guy who showed me all this did it in fellowship, and I didn't get to write it all down, but he said he'd make a copy of my notes. But I think that it's a good addition to what we have already discussed. But I will put the whole thing on http://pfredy.blogspot.com/ when I get the rest of the story.

Wow, Paul. I think I'm going to have to print these out and read them with my Bible -- over and over. You're WAY over my head here, I'm in mommy mode most of the day and reading for deep meaning takes a total switchover of my brain! I've read these two comments about 3 times and I'm sure what you're saying makes perfect sense, but I keep getting bogged down. I'm looking forward to your post, I'm adding your blog to my reader so I'll be sure to catch your post.