Romans 9:3 - I cannot imagine saying this. I guess I can imagine the longing to have those you love know what you know, but to wish to be cut off?
Romans 9:13 - Was this God speaking about Jacob and Esau? Did God say he hated Esau?
Romans 9:14-24 - I have to admit that a plain reading of this passage seems to support the idea of pre-destination. I can't wrap my mind around this and I am only reading Romans 9 in isolation, but it seems that Paul is saying God chooses. Some, like Pharaoh and Esau, are chosen to be objects of God's wrath, others are chosen for higher purposes. I can't bring myself to believe the Calvinist position of predestination, however. I'm still not sure what to make of this.
Romans 9:30-31 - This verse and verse 24 remind me that the greater point that Paul was making is that Jew and Gentile are alike, both in sin, both justified by faith. So, if it is our faith that will save us it is not simple God's pre-destination, right? That still, unfortunately, doesn't quite explain the previous section! Another question to ask the Master when I get there. :-)
Struggling with that Romans 9:14-21 passage m'self, though for different reasons. I'm definitely Calvinist, but the knowledge that God doesn't choose some and the lack of knowledge as to why is disturbing.
Hey Doug,
Here's how I resolve the predestination vs free will paradox in my mind. Acts 17:26-27 says:
"From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us."
On one hand, God determined our circumstances, including everything that influences every decision we make. On the other hand, he did this so that *perhaps* we would reach out for him and find him. So there is a deterministic level, and a nondeterministic level. It doesn't completely make sense to us because we have a limited perspective, being a part of creation. But both predestination and free will are true doctrines. Teaching one to the exclusion of the other is not accurate IMO. Like you suggested, we will just have to wait until we see God to get the clearest understanding.
At least, that is how I have settled it in my mind. Maybe that helps a bit.
Alan
Alan - That does help.
Scott - I read your take on it as well. I liked the points you made about us not being able to choose our parents or whether we like chocolate or not. I think you and I have a different perspective on original sin and the sinful nature, although I must say that I've not completely thought through the sinful nature thing. I did read an interesting paper on that a year ago that argued against the idea that we have a part of us that's inherently sinful. I blogged about it here.
It seems to me that there's this tension in scripture between the idea that God chooses us and that we seek and find Him. As you said Alan, it doesn't seem that to say God picks and chooses, the pure Calvinist position, is the complete picture in light of that verse in Acts as well as other passages where men are seen seeking and finding God. On the other hand, to say that we seek and find Him of our own efforts is pretty ridiculous as well. How can we possibly be capable of finding God on our own?
I like Isaiah 43:1-4 and versus 3b-4 are "I give Egypt for your ransom, Cush and Seba in your stead. Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give men in excahnge for you, and people in exchange for your life."
My uneducated opionion is that we all have a chance to make the right decisions and become Christians. However, at some point God knows when someone isn't going to do that and He can use them, in a sense, to help others become Christians. You can look at 3b and say that God knew that Pharoh was going to so no until the end. That some Eqyptians would be sacraficed in the process so the Jews could be set free in the way He intended. I don't believe that those who were sacraficed didn't have a choice to turn back and do the right thing but God knew they wouldn't. I guess it begs the question as to whether God is ever suprised. Anyway, my two cents.